Lifter tap?
#1
        Story goes had the car ( 70 Mach 1 Cleveland engine) since January, engine sounded lovely, started very easily ( still does) and was very quiet running ( notice WAS).
I have done about 300 mls in her and had the aircon topped up a couple of weeks ago and as I drove home on a hot ( for us) day it started to stall in traffic which was unusual and by the time I got home there was a "tapping sound" from the l/h bank.
Long story short the  no 3 intake valve had a very loose rattly rocker.
The nut holding the rocker was very loose and I think there are other ones but not as bad.
My question is should I be able to "push on the push rod with something to depress the lifter spring?" I have tried but it is solid and does not give at all so does that mean the lifter is "stuck or damaged"?
My theory is that i believe the car stood for a number of years and even though I changed the oil twice when i bought it some crud has blocked the lifter in the down position possibly.
Iv'e run an engine flush and drained the oil ( so if i do change the lifters hopefully the crud has left the system) but obviously the noise is still there as the rocker is loose.
Should i just reset the lifter and see or do I take the manifold off and change all the lifters?
I forgot to mention a PO had a sticky lifter on that side in 2002 according to a bill ( they cured it with ATF i think!)

So should I be able to push the lifter spring down? should i just take a rocker off another valve and see if i can push that spring down?

The pictures show it's a "bitsa" engine, H code block, 4* heads with some Boss parts I think.

Any guides to setting the lifters would be great as well

Thanks
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#2
Several thoughts come to mind as you've talked before about what appears to be some mismatched parts. So at this point who knows exactly what you have, and if they are truly compatible with each other. If it has solid lifters? As I believe a Boss 351 would have had. Then no you would not be able to compress the lifter. If they are hydraulic. Then why would they have used guide plates??? And yes you would be able to compress the lifter slightly. Remember they should be full of oil so they won't / shouldn't compress to easily. I would turn the engine by hand, and run #3 cylinder to TDC, pull the sparkplug, and use a piece of coat hanger, or light wire to feel for the piston, while someone else turns the engine by hand. When the piston comes up stop it just as you fell it start back down. You don't have to be 100% accurate, all you want is for both valves to be closed. If either valve is open turn the crank one full turn to get to the compression stroke. Both valves closed. Reinstall the push rod and rocker arm, Then run the self locking nut down till it just touches, and see if it simply backed off. (The nut should be roughly in the  same general spot on the rocker stud as the other ones). That is a possibility as those self locking nuts are not fool proof, especially after being taken on, and off several times. After you do any adjustment on the valves, be sure to turn the engine by hand, 3 or 4 full revolutions! If you fell a sudden stop or resistance, back up a little, then try again. If it stops in the same spot twice. Then you are hitting something. Most likely a valve into a piston. Let me know what you find. Hope it helps. 

JTS
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#3
You have hit the nail on the head with the "not knowing" what its made of problem, as I know for sure the manifold is Boss and the heads have at least Boss parts ( actual Boss heads or not) and as you say why have all those Boss parts and not fit the cam and solid lifters?
I dont want to pull the manifold at the moment ( planned to do that next winter) but might have to bite the bullet.

I was thinking of fitting roller hydraulic lifters when if I change them, any thoughts JT?
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#4
Well fitting new lifters on a used cam is very risky at best. I've gotten away with it, but don't recommend it. If it was a Chevy I wouldn't even think about it, as they eat cam lobes, and lifters for lunch! Even when everything is new LOL!

You will have to change the cam if you go with Hydraulic rollers as the cam lobes are not even close to the same.

 A cam swap is doable in the car. You will have to remove the hood latch support brace in the core support, but it is doable. And if you go that far, off comes the intake!

JTS

Ps Question is this by chance the left, or drivers side bank, you're dealing with?
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#5
(06-17-2021, 02:02 AM)JTS71 Mach1 Wrote: Well fitting new lifters on a used cam is very risky at best. I've gotten away with it, but don't recommend it. If it was a Chevy I wouldn't even think about it, as they eat cam lobes, and lifters for lunch! Even when everything is new LOL!

You will have to change the cam if you go with Hydraulic rollers as the cam lobes are not even close to the same.

 A cam swap is doable in the car. You will have to remove the hood latch support brace in the core support, but it is doable. And if you go that far, off comes the intake!

JTS

Ps Question is this by chance the left, or drivers side bank, you're dealing with?
It's the left bank, is the oil supply less on that side?
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#6
No actually it's more. The left bank is fed from the center main bearing, and right between the center 2 cylinders on the left bank. It can cause a oil pressure spike, and fill the lifters to the point they go solid for the Intake valve on #2 and the Exhaust on #3, which can cause it to bend a pushrod or a valve. I got lucky mine simply bent a couple pushrods.

JTS
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#7
From the description it sounds like noise is from one lifter.  If he is fortunate, a rocker nut merely backed off.  I guess the next simplest issue would be a hydraulic lifter collapsed and stuck.  If not fortunate, depending on what type of oil is being used, worse case could be a lifter ruined a cam lobe.  What type of oil is being used in the motor?  With flat tappet cams, hopefully it's a type with a high zinc phosphate content to protect a flat tappet cam and lifters.

For the hydraulic vs. solid lifter question.  Solid flat tappet lifters use a conventional internal snap ring in the top to hold the internal parts in.  Hydraulic flat tappet lifters have a unique bent wire retainer ring.  If it's possible to see the tops of the lifters through the pushrod holes, maybe that would help.  Also, easily enough, if the other rockers have zero valve lash then it has hydraulic flat tappet lifters.

A note on hydraulic roller conversions. It's best to use the retrofit (tie bar) style hydraulic roller lifters combined with a standard base circle hydraulic roller camshaft as opposed to the retrofit small base circle camshaft with OEM type hydraulic roller lifters. Also, stronger valve springs are needed due to the heaver weight of the roller lifters and more aggressive ramps on the cam lobes. Those usually require cylinder head machine work. You can sometimes search and find a correct load rated valve spring that fits your application without machine work. That's what I did so do your homework. Then you will need custom length shorter push rods which are not too bad. I recently purchased a set from Smith Brothers. And in the end you'll think why run a roller cam without using full roller rocker arms. Just be prepared, it can snowball, do your homework before jumping in. I did this conversion on the 351W in my 1969 Mach 1. The big benefit is because of the ramp shapes on the cam lobes, more aggressive cams will have a smoother idle and more idle vacuum than the equivalent hydraulic flat tappet cam.
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#8
        Taken the manifold off and the "duff lifter" doesn't seem to be duff.
I've taken 2 others out "but I can't push any of them down", so unless I'm very weak ( possible  Huh) or I'm doing it wrong I have to assume the rocker nut had come loose ( very possible as the other 2 I took off were much tighter) 
Anyway as there was a historic sticky lifter and I've gone to all this trouble what is the best thing to do now -

1- replace all the lifters with new ones ( take a chance with breaking them in and not damaging the cam)
2 - refurbish the existing lifters if that is possible ( I'm thinking a good clean and new springs?)
3 - can I soak all the existing lifters in something for a day or so to make sure there is no crud inside then re-fit

I will fit new rocker nuts as some seem looser than others.
I have a tube of Amsoil engine assy lube which I intend to put on the bottom of the lifters when I refit them.

Good news is it seems very clean in the valley ( as the crankcase / crank etc was when I changed the sump pan when I first got the car) .
I now know the heads are open chamber 4v ones ( casting number / mustang tech) but that still doesn't explain why somebody went to the trouble of machining and fitting Ford pushrod guides along with the other upgrade parts.

Also please remember I'm in the UK so parts / advice / somebody else with a V8 is much harder here.

I'm running it on a UK 10w30 oil with 900ppm Zinc as we are limited in what is a reasonable price here.
Going to try and get my pretty alloy manifold media blasted ( very gently) tomorrow or early next week then I might try and rebuild the Holley ( I have a full kit)


Thanks for all your input  Thumbup
[/url]
[url=https://www.classic-oils.net/AMSOIL-Engine-Assembly-Lube]
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#9
            I will never get the hang of adding pictures  Huh
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#10
Looking at the pictures I'd say it's a good bet the nut simply backed off. which is not too uncommon for that style of lock nut. Especially if they have been off several times. I'd clean it up and put the lifter back in the hole, and set the valves. There are a couple ways to adjust them, one is quite messy, and the other isn't. The messy way, after reassembly run the nut down on the effected cylinder to roughly the same height as the rest but no more. Now with the valve cover off, start the engine and begin on one bank, and tighten down each rocker nut until you hear that cylinder start to miss back off 1/4 to a 1/2 turn. Make sure that cylinder starts running again. If it's still ticking tighten it down slowly till it stops ticking. Repeat for all rockers till you have run them all. Replace valve cover, and do the other side, all should be good. The non messy way turn the engine over by hand, and watch the exhaust valve go down and come back up, turn it a little more after the exhaust valve stops moving, maybe a 1/4 turn. set both the intake and exhaust valve on that cylinder. Back the lock nut off fully loose, then tighten the rocker nut while turning the corresponding pushrod with your fingers until you fell resistance too turning the push rod. tighten down additional 1/2 turn.  Go to the next rocker, and do the same. Put some kind of mark on each pair you do, to make sure you don't miss any. When done start the car and see if you have any ticking, or cylinders that are missing. Most usually you won't have a problem. and it will run fine. 

If you aren't sure about the instructions just ask I'll try to explain it a different way. Good Luck.

JTS
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