69 mach1 351w Roller rocker recommendation
#21
Yeah, now that I look through my Ford Racing catalog I see the early 289 cylinder heads use the pushrod holes in the cylinder head for rocker arm alignment. I've seen small block Chevrolet motors wear the push rod hole in cylinder head if something goes wrong. I tend to go on the safer side than some others. And compared to most engine parts, guide plates are relatively inexpensive. The 351W has oversize pushrod holes in the cylinder head and the rocker arms maintained alignment. So guide plates are needed when converting rocker arms.

If you don't drive the car much, like most of us including myself, the non hardened exhaust seats will last quite a while. If it was a daily driver, non hardened exhaust seats usually only last about 15K-20k miles.

Best Regards,
Mike
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#22
Edelbrock brand looks reasonable compared to others
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/edl-9636

Scorpion tech said to get 5/16 with .08 wall thickness. I wouldn't mind cheating out a bit on pushrods as my spend is starting to add up. Btw I bought scorpion scp3018 1.6. I'll let you know how it goes.
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#23
(06-03-2015, 08:42 AM)1969_Mach1 Wrote: Yeah, now that I look through my Ford Racing catalog I see the early 289 cylinder heads use the pushrod holes in the cylinder head for rocker arm alignment. I've seen small block Chevrolet motors wear the push rod hole in cylinder head if something goes wrong. I tend to go on the safer side than some others. And compared to most engine parts, guide plates are relatively inexpensive. The 351W has oversize pushrod holes in the cylinder head and the rocker arms maintained alignment. So guide plates are needed when converting rocker arms.

If you don't drive the car much, like most of us including myself, the non hardened exhaust seats will last quite a while. If it was a daily driver, non hardened exhaust seats usually only last about 15K-20k miles.

Best Regards,
Mike

It's always better to be safe than sorry. In regards to the hardened seats the primary reason I did not have them installed was because they are HIPO heads. The machine shop suggested if he hit an air pocket in the casting the heads would be no good and end up in his pile of non-salvageable parts. True or untrue it was a chance I did not want to take. After all, I felt I was lucky enough to score the heads I did not want the good luck to end!

Also, if by chance anyone subscribes to Hemming's Muscle Machines they have a great article this month's (July) issue on roller cams. The article is "Roll Your Own - Taking the Mystery out of Upgrading to a Roller Cam" It coincides nicely with this thread and gives an abundance of technical advice and how to's.
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#24
I'll search for the article. I converted my 351W to a hydraulic roller cam and roller rocker arm setup a long time ago. I splurged for the cam conversion and installed the tie-bar style hydraulic roller lifters. That enables the use of a standard base circle hydraulic roller cam instead of a small base circle retrofit hydraulic roller cam. The hydraulic roller cams also enable you to use something more aggressive than a flat tappet hydraulic cam and still maintain fair idle quality and sufficient vacuum for power brakes. Plus you don't have the initial break in concerns and can use most any motor oil. The only down side is you need stronger valve springs which can be challenging to fit to OEM castings.

Best Regards,
Mike
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#25
Any advise on porting / polishing heads and intake while I have them out?
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#26
(06-02-2015, 09:58 AM)Mustangmike Wrote: Regarding valve train geometry, below is a excerpt from my 66 project post: YLWHRSE is the author

RE: 66 Mustang Restoration

I sure you are aware but in case not I thought I would share. To check rocker valve train geometry the easiest and quickest way I have found ( and you should check even a stock rebuild ) is to clean the top of the valve with a rag and some brake clean then take a magic marker and color the tip of the valve solid with the marker. Then install the rocker arm ( cleaning the surface that contacts the valve the same way) adjust your rocker arm for zero lash and then rotate the engine over allowing the valve to cycle open and closed. Then remove the rocker arm and inspect the now shiny spot ( should be a straight line roughly ) that should be centered over the center of the valve tip. If the "wear" mark on the tip of the valve is forward or rear of centerline your geometry is out of whack. Just make sure if you have hydraulic lifters that they are pumped up so you dont compress the lifter plunger. There are many variables in the geometry and the effects on it, deck height, cam profile, surfacing heads ect. I would also buy a pushrod checker ( essentially a two piece pushrod that has a threaded piece in the middle to adjust it for length. I built my first one with some all thread a welder and a couple of nuts. While crude it did get the job done. Every cam manufacturer has some tech info on the subject so I recommend checking those sources out it is worth the read. A good machine shop should be able to assist you with advice and if purchasing the pushrods from them may even lend you a pushrod checker, although I am in a small town and on a first name basis with my machinist. That may not work where you are at. Hope this helps.
YLWHRSE

YLWHRSE is right on how to obtain the correct geometry. Here is a picture of my heads after I installed the correct length and "hardened" push rods. I used also used Comp Cam roller tip rockers:



The correct length pushrods ended up being about double the price compared to the stock length but having the correct geometry is worth the extra $$

I actually purchased the pushrod tool from Summit Racing for about $20.

I too had this problem on a 351w with a roller cam, it too had push in studs as the previouse owner neglected to give any attention to the studs after assembling it with all the other go fast bits.
Myself: I just tapped out straight into the stud holes (Heads off) where the bottle type studs went directly with a 7/16 starter tap and then a bottom tap. Taking the studs out was easy, i just used a thick metal tube with a thick washer on the top and a 5/16 nut. Just tighten down and the stud pulls out.

I keept everything true on the bench when tapping, and used tapping oil.
My assembly though was a simple one with just hardened p/rods, comp 1:6 roller tip rockers which dont recommend guide plates, so the stud shoulder goes straight to the head, whilst using water tight loctite/ sealer into the water jackets and torqued down. The geometry is good with placement on the valve tips dead center and it runs nice. I might also add these rockers are a rail type and require more lenght on the valve tip to stop smashing the retainer.

Im just saying what I did for an easy conversion to screw in studs, not how it should be done but it worked for me and I dont worry about studs tearing out.
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#27
Hi mike, is .023 piston ring gap acceptable for 669 351w? I think upper limit is .020 dk it's slightly over.

Also can I use wire brush on the block to clean up gasket?
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#28
Your right, per the factory shop manual the range is 0.010" to .020". The rule of thumb is 0.003" ring end gap clearance for every inch of bore diameter. Between work when I was younger and my own personal cars, for stock motors I don't recall seeing end gaps that large on the top and middle ring. Often I've had to file the rings a little to obtain the minimum clearance. Oil rings usually have large gaps.

Have you checked the ring end gap at the top and bottom of the bore? Have you checked the piston to cylinder wall clearance? Is this a new rebuild with freshly bored and honed cylinders or are you freshening up a motor with some wear on it? Also, make certain you have the correct rings. Is this issue in all the cylinders or only the one that needed a new piston?

I would do some research before assembling it. If everything else is correct I would try a different brand ring. Or by file to fit rings and a ring file from Summit Racing. Then spend a little time filing to obtain a more ideal clearance for a stock rebuild.

There is the possibility if this is an older motor you are freshening up, the cylinders are worn enough to cause this. Hopefully this is not the case.

I didn't notice your other posts regarding the Edelbrock push rods and porting the cylinder heads. From the picture of those push rods it looks like they are not one piece. My preference is the one piece push rods. They look like this, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-21.../overview/ But they can get pricey.

For porting, these cylinder heads typically need a lot lot lot lot lot of work in the exhaust ports. I easily spend 40 hours on mine with the guidance of the machine shop. Unless you have a lot of extra time, die grinder, and a good air compressor to power the die grinder, I wouldn't attempt it. Headers will help because the stock exhaust manifolds are terrible as well. Short headers like from JBA fit without any issues. Long tube headers usually cause fitment issues you have to sort through.

I know rebuild costs can get high. In my area, you can easily invest $2500 to $3000 for a stock to mild rebuild. Depending on how much work the cylinder heads need, and if you are balancing the rotating assembly. Believe it or not, the biggest cost of a rebuild for older motors is usually in the cylinder heads. I do as much of my own assembly as I can to save a dollar here and there.

Best Regards,
Mike
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